Charge Forward

Wait for the enemy to come to you or take the fight to the enemy?

The gunman who killed at least 80 people at an island youth camp northwest of Oslo used his disguise to lure in his victims, then shot them twice to make sure they were dead, survivors said in the village of Sundvollen, where they were taken after the massacre. … Elise said she hid behind the same rock that the killer was standing on. … Several victims "had pretended as if they were dead to survive," the 21-year-old said. But after shooting the victims with one gun, the gunman shot them again in the head with a shotgun…. Emilie Bersaas… said she ran inside a school building and hid under a bed when the shooting started. … "I laid under the bed for two hours and then the police smashed a window and came in…."

Comments from the Ace of Spades blog article on Oslo terrorist

I heard 90 minutes. Not to minimize the tragedy in any way, but WTF? Some of the people there were in their high teens and early 20's. I'd like to hear more about how this went down. There wasn't one person there who could have run up behind the shooter and smashed his head with a rock or something? I want to hear if someone tried to step up in any way. It makes no sense to me that someone, armed but seriously outnumbered, could walk around for 90 minutes or so and just keep firing without anyone trying to jump him and subdue him. Any 'let's roll' moments that didn't quite work out? I really want to know…

Not to be cold but they were mostly kids, probably young Commie peaceniks who are taught to hug trees, not engage in violence. They were easy targets.

The guy had a machine gun. If someone was able to organize and coordinate many people it might have been feasible, though I'm sure it was pretty difficult to organize anybody after the shooting started. After people started splitting up, running up to him while he was shooting with that would have been just plain suicide.

AD, he had (according to the Norwegian police) an automatic rifle and a handgun. He had to stop to reload. One girl hid right under him, and I still think these young people had been so indoctrinated that they never even thought to pull together to get him. 90 minutes is a long time. I can buy panic for the first five minutes, but after that, I cannot imagine why they didn't pull themselves together and fight back.

Maybe. I just choose to believe that the natural reaction is to just hide and hope it will just go away. That's what makes Flight 93 so heroic.

I saw other reports saying had had a machine gun. Link (The Daily Mail isn't the best place, but I saw it at other places.) If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Without it, yeah, it would be more feasible.

Maybe. But, many jumped in the water and started swimming, which made them floating targets, which also smacks of suicide. At some point, this guy had to stop and reload. Maybe I would have done the same thing and ran like hell, I don't know. But the die running vs. die trying thing has been nagging me since yesterday. Like I wrote earlier, I want to know more details. I want to know if someone at least tried…

How many stories did we see out of Iraq about busloads of army/police reqruits marched off buses and executed? Those were by and large adults. I can't blame the kids for not mounting a defense. I would blame the organizers of the event for having no security precautions whatsoever (how do the local police not swarm this island after the bombing earlier within minutes of the first shooting).

Grand Prairie, Texas — A shooter opened fire at a skating rink during a private family event Saturday night, killing five and wounding four before turning the gun on himself. … a family member… pulled a pistol and started shooting after getting into an argument with his wife. … Including the gunman, six people were killed. Three were wounded… fourth victim arrived at a hospital by themselves [sic] … witnesses reported seeing individuals fleeing the skating rink, some of whom still had their skates on. …

A fight at a crowded Kent car show escalated Saturday afternoon, leaving 10 people shot as cars sped away from the scene and frightened spectators ducked into the safety of nearby businesses. … At least one shooter fired from the front of the shopping center into the crowd. … Patrons and employees in nearby shops and restaurants locked the doors and crouched in back rooms … Police said they don’t know how many shooters there were. No arrests had been made by Saturday night. … eight people — six men and two women — were admitted to the hospital with non-life threatening injuries. … ages of the wounded ranged from 14 to 32 … a fight broke out just before the shooting … About 10 people rushed into the back restrooms of the nail shop after locking the front door….

He ordered all the men out of the room, then systematically began picking off the women who were left.

Ecole Polytechnique in Montreal on December 6, 1989
(I tried to find how many men were culled from the room. One source said there were 26 students. If the two professors were male, and there were nine women, 17 men left them behind. Wikipedia's article says the killer "separated the nine women from the approximately fifty men and ordered the men to leave." [my emphasis.])

Hearing the gunshots, gym coach Jon Lane entered the classroom. Loukaitis was holding his classmates hostage, and planned to use one hostage so he could safely exit the school. Lane volunteered as the hostage, and Loukaitis was keeping Lane at gun point with his rifle. Lane then grabbed the weapon from Loukaitis and wrestled him to the ground, and assisted the evacuation of students.

In 1903, the great poet, Chaim Nachman Bialik, was sent to report on the Kishinev massacre of Jews in Russia. Bialik was shocked by what he learned of the men's passivity, as their women were raped and murdered before their eyes. … once again, here in America, too many Jewish men are crouching "in that dark corner," while Jewish women are attacked.…

While I always appreciate expert advice and soak it up as much as I can, I have been struck by one commonality that I have heard and vigorously disagree with. I have been told over and over again that the first thing one must do when a combat theater unfolds is to seek cover. I'm sorry, but that is wrong. … Any adult with any degree of physical capability, regardless of armament, upon seeing a shooter should immediately RUN AT THE S.O.B. as hard and as fast as possible. If you have a gun, you draw it and start shooting as soon as you can. If you have a knife, draw it and brandish it and then go for the face and neck as soon as you are in range. If you are unarmed you can still tackle him and beat him into submission or death, if necessary, or gouge his eyes out (ladies). … Let's say that I rush a gunman. In the time it takes the gunman to see me rushing him, aim, fire and drop me, other people have advanced four or five steps closer to him. Each person he has to kill buys the other people four or five steps. This is war, writ small. What do you think D-Day was? …

BearNow, if you're an average person in approximately the first scenario, your first instinctive response will probably not be to charge forward, screaming in rage, straight at the bear and lunge for his eyes or jugglar with whatever was in your hand. … No, you're probably going to do something like run away screaming in high-pitched terror, faint, freeze, or muss your underoos. You were, in a word, unprepared.